Tedd Game Opinions - 043 - HD

Like, what do you think the other option is? "Hey, submit to the rule of this army. We promise its all a feint. The fact that we stood NO chance against them and as their submissive power will NEVER stand a chance against them is irrelevant, just give up your god and cultural laws for an unspecified amount of time."? And when have the Empire communicated to Skyrim they have some sort of impossible plan to beat the army that utterly destroyed them? They didn't show up and say "Hey guys, just pretend" they showed up and arrested a political opponent, and started executing people. The Thalmor are literally wandering Skyrim putting Talos worshipers to DEATH. Hunting them. Not Stormcloaks, not Rebels. Innocent Talos worshipers.

Jade English

Well, the Nord culture is more important because its the only one being stamped out. Talos worship is the basis of the Nord philosophy, the Nord cultural afterlife. What your saying is like saying "How is outlawing Native Religion unfair to the Natives? All the other cultures can't practice Native Religion either." Also, we don't KNOW what is happening in High Rock, Hammerfell, Black Marsh (A famously unconquerable place), or Cyrodiil. But no one is saying "You can't worship the Argonian Gods" or "You can't worship the Khajiit gods" only "You can't worship the god that the Nords based their entire cultural identity on" And what do you think "joining" means? Sure, they're under a yoke. They're just following orders. But they're killing citizens for refusing to submit to an enemy. What else do you call that? "They're feigning surrender to an enemy they have no hope of ever defeating, and as part of that surrender are subjugating their own citizens" sure sounds like they need to be resisted to me.

Jade English

What makes you think the Empire JOINED the Thalmor? They're chafing under the yoke as much as anyone. Why is Skyrim and its culture any more special than, say, High Rock? Or Hammerfell? Or Black Marsh? Or Cyrodiil? They're PART of the Empire, too, and they're also being forced to outlaw Talos worship. But are any of them home to a petty, short-sighted rebellion that serves the true enemy? No. Because unlike the Stormcloaks, those provinces, and indeed, the other half of Skyrim that ISN'T rebelling, understand and accept that sometimes you have to feign surrender until you can sucker-punch the asshole trying to outlaw your provably-real religion. The Rebellion isn't happening because MUH CULTURE, or every province in the Empire would be up in arms. It's happening because Ulfric refuses to play along with the Empire's "oh yeah, sure, we're 100% onboard with outlawing our centuries-old religion, honest, guv," act.

Chordat

In fairness, he is only in charge of the Moot, which in an event where the Jarls get together to decide a new High King, I sort of oversimplified there. But the Empire decided to not allow them to have the Moot, declare a successor illegally, and arrest Ulfric despite the duel being legal.

Jade English

"Become an arm of the Thalmor and continue their crusade to parts of Tamriel that they hadn't attacked yet, and subjugate your own citizens" is not a good look. "If you can't beat them, join them" isn't actually good life advice. And they're being asked to give up their religion, which their culture is based on, ignore their their laws (Ulfric won the Duel with Torygg, and therefor should be allowed to call a Moot to declare a new High King), and submit to Thalmor occupation. How are they not being assimilated? They were PART of the Empire, but have their own culture and laws. The Rebellion is happening because they are being asked to give up those laws and culture and assimilate.

Jade English

I'm okay with those being the only two choices but only IF joining neither and starting your own, third, faction that takes over the other two (or joining one and becoming leader of it and getting rid of its worse tendencies) is an option

Harmony Petersen

I'm not sure I like any system where "did legitimately defeat the former High King in single combat, so he is the rightful political leader" is the way things go. The rightful warlord? Maybe. But I feel like political leaders should be based on ideas and leadership, not combat prowess. Yeah, I know, it's a video game. I also know I have issues. I'm just saying, so you know.

Some Ed

The Empire chose to kill the PC because it was easier paperwork. You then escape through the dungeon where they torture people. And you can ask to join them in their capital, where they are executing a random guard for refusing to falsely arrest someone. And where they have a vampire torturing prisoners. Why, exactly, would anyone ever willingly interact with them? Saying hello to an Imperial Soldier is just asking to be lightning bolted.

Viktor

Skyrim wasn't being colonised or assimilated, they were already a part of the Empire. They have been since the Empire was founded hundreds of years ago, LONG before the war with the Thalmor. Not to mention you're acting like the Empire likes being forced to proscribe Talos worship, and isn't trying to marshal strength for Round 2 with the Thalmor, that they KNOW is coming. Ulfric and his followers are being petty short-sighted spoiled babies, throwing a temper tantrum because they don't want to accept that the Empire can put survival over pride, and took the least bad option when they lost. The Empire's options when the Thalmor took the Imperial City were literally 1) Accept the White-Gold Concordat, outlawing Talos worship, but prepare for round two in order to undo it, or 2) Cease to exist in any fashion except resistance movements, allowing the Thalmor to outlaw Talos worship and do a hell of a lot worse completely unopposed.

Chordat

Well, yes. But the other option is Totalitarian Rule by a puppet of the Thalmor. There isn't a much better option there, the people of Skyrim are being told to give up their [provably real] religion, their cultural laws, and their sovereignty to an Empire that works directly for the Thalmor, who are xenocidal and totalitarian. They're getting Colonized and *forcibly assimilated*. What's the other option?

Jade English

The Imperials are trying to stamp out the religion of a provably real god because the idea that a human could become a god deeply offends the Thalmor, who they work for. Also, they work for the Thalmor, though under duress. Also, if you believe various witnesses you can interview, Ulfric did legitimately defeat the former High King in single combat, so he is the rightful political leader of Skyrim and the Empire are just...pretending that Skyrim law doesn't apply because he won't lick their boots. Don't get me wrong, the Stormcloaks suck, but the Empire is not better.

Jade English

Been a while since I've actually played Skyrim, and I've only advanced the civil war questline far enough to have a battle of Whiterun once, but I thought the religious fascists were the racists? Not siding with the Imperials comes down to the still very sensible "those guys sentenced me to death under a false accusation, screw them".

Jared Fattmann

This is how I feel playing Fallout 4. Everyone but the minutemen are total jerkwads.

John H. Fee

After 10 years of playing Skyrim, I've only ever started the Civil War quest line once... by accident (I cleared out a fort).

Michael C.

I feel this is more "the Civil War is not a good example." The companions (in the base game) had the only Master Trainer for blacksmithing. The Dark Brotherhood the only alchemy master trainer. Sure, you could do without master trainers, but it made the game, in all seriousness, less fun for certain playstyles. And not even just inherently problematic playstyles (head of the DB, slew the emperor, but still whatever rank you end up in the legion if you go pro empire in the CW).

Windscion

Problem is, dig deep enough and you realise the racists are objectively in the wrong. "They should have fought to the end instead of surrendering!" They DID. The Thalmor kicked the Empire's ass and forced an edict they KNEW would cause stability problems. They chose to let the Empire continue to exist so that those filthy humans would fight and kill each other without risking Thalmor lives, so they'd be weakened for when the Thalmor decided to finish the job. The Stormcloaks are catspaws for the Thalmor. They may not realise it, and they may be hostile to the Thalmor, but that doesn't change the fact that their rebellion, and the lives it's cost, is exactly what the Thalmor wanted to happen.

Chordat

I feel like there's a bit of that for both sides. Though poking the wiki it's implied that Maven rules either way, she's just more open about it under the Empire.

I'm not sure Skyrim is a good example here. Sure, that one quest chain had the whole "both are bad in their own ways", but (A) that the conflict wasn't as straight-forward as good guy vs. bad guy was part of the point, and (B) you didn't need to finish that quest line if you didn't want to. There wasn't a clean exit point, sure, but you could just "peace out" without real consequence.

JohnInCA

My problem with the Empire was that siding with them meant Maven got to rule Riften. I detest that woman soooo much.

Windscion

I always side with the Imperials for Skyrim. Part of that is I often play a Dark Elf and they're treated like crap by the Stormcloaks. The other part is from other information in the game it is implied the Thalmer basically started the civil war on purpose. And the Thalmer are not the Imperials, the sooner the Empire is united again the sooner we can work on kicking them out.

That is so me. I've finished the main storyline seven times, with and without mods, but I've never done the civil war questline, at least not to the point of having to pick a side.

Paul Rendell

Never DID finish that game. That was one of the reasons.

MelodyBunneh