Sky Pride Vol. 5 Chapter 48- The Responsibilities of a Senior Brother
Added 2026-02-11 15:00:21 +0000 UTCComments
I was rereading this chapter and I was thinking about the segment ----- You believe it too, provisionally, and discard it ruthlessly if what you are told doesn’t match your observations.” Tian blinked at that one. “Respectfully, Elder, isn’t that what everyone does?” “To a degree.” ----- And I found it really interesting as I think I initially skimmed over it as obvious. Like it seems that if you recieve contradictory first hand evidence you would change your position. I thought it a bit more and was thinking about the famous line from 1984 which would be the most extreme opposite of this case "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." I imagine a lot of people imagine the turning away of your eyes being an absolute. Either you do or you do not. But in reality it is a scale like Elder Rui says people only change their positions based on evidence to a degree. Once a worldview is established how many little things do you look away even only slightly from to maintain it. I think in theory everyone agrees with Tian but how many can say to have never looked away from the evidence of their own eyes? And this is the part I think Rui (or the Daoist Masters behind him) have trouble with Tian. Most people will have some amount of willful ignorance to maintain harmony. They will pretend to not see issues in order to maintain relationships, will follow practises or routines that are debunked as they can see others who have followed them are more successful. In the case of the monastery the ignorance is arguably necessary for if your junior was not willing to avert his gaze from his senior's vice how will he obey him? And what senior can claim to be without vice? In this unbroken chain the willful ignorance of the junior is needed lest it snaps and condemns not just them but those below them on the chain. From Rui's point of view it is not Tian's unwillingness to look away is snapping this chain. So what is the answer? Rui I think sees potential in Tian's forgiveness but misunderstands it. He views Tian's willingness to forgive not as good as a willingness to be ignorant but is close enough. The problem is forgiveness is not free. Tian forgived Fu not the Monastery for he loves Fu. Tian to Rui demands something for his position which again breaks the chain. But from Tians perspective the unwillingness to obey is not a breaking of the chain. He still performs his obligation to his juniors as any senior does. Tian's answer is not just forgiveness. It is acknowledgment and a demand for change. Just because your seniors are not viceless does not mean they can not give the correct orders. Just because the junior asks questions does not mean he is unwilling to listen. Understanding for obedience seems to be the exchange here but idea a junior can demand for something for their obedience more than the hope of rising in the chain is anathema to the idea of the chain. I think those are all my thoughts but overall I really enjoyed this chapter for making me thing about thinks that initially seem obvious.
LordMars
2026-02-13 12:00:58 +0000 UTCThe hidden Daoist Master(s) who are using Elder Rui as their mouthpiece are so used to benefiting from the imposed status quo that they have forgotten that filial piety is a construction used to create social permanence out of ephemeral performances of obedience and face. (Perhaps a specific form of cultivator dementia?) They cannot figure out why Tian gives only a clearly over-the-top, quotes-added, performance of obedience and refuses paying even lip service to face without evidence of merit. And they are thoroughly pissed off about it. This seems odd for two reasons: immaturity and overreach. The Masters end up looking pretty whiny. They have eternity. Why should they be upset that 6 months of homework isn't enough to brainwash/persuade a traumatized teenager their organization wounded to unthinking respect and obedience? Elder Rui seemed to understand this in the previous chapter. Perhaps he is performing for the masters as well. As for overreach, filial piety and other this-world China-inspired cultural constructs appear in this cultivation world. In this world, these social institutions, particularly Confucian filial piety, often emphasize practice and form rather than internal alignment. Intent, psychological states, or internalized cultural values may evolve through the constant practice of form but these are neither interrogated nor required. Proper outward forms are regulated and emphasized. Who cares why Tian wears clothes as long he does it, most of the time at any rate. If the emphasis on practice also applies here why are the old Masters so obsessed with what Tian really thinks and feels? As he asks, as long as he acts with obedience, what is their problem with him refusing to believe they are the source of all wisdom?
Felix Giron
2026-02-13 01:48:53 +0000 UTCTian: your control and planning have lead to this disaster, explain how you can be trusted to run things. Elders: well you see if everyone just listens to and follows perfectly our vague, wishy washy wisdom things will be amazing.
Louis Nel
2026-02-12 08:27:24 +0000 UTC>Unquestioning blind obedience, which is what I feel like some of the elders expect, does not seem like a good way to follow the Dao, and I find it hard to believe that the ancient crane would have taught that. The only thing the ancient crane taught with respect to filial duty is that you should mourn your elders passing, but not to excess. That does not seem like she was trying to convey blind obedience...
Nedardo
2026-02-12 05:53:37 +0000 UTCYeah, I have met some excellent people who barely survived shitty parents
EvilLittleThing
2026-02-12 02:39:23 +0000 UTC"That a decent person owes everything good in their life to their parents, and they have a duty to repay those blessings." this is utter bullshit. absolutely asinine thinking. yes Honor you parents 'but owes everything good in their life' to their parents??? Bullshit!
Logan
2026-02-12 02:11:38 +0000 UTCThis was very good
ben regnard
2026-02-12 01:24:37 +0000 UTCI'm starting to think about how generations down the line this era will be semi-mythologized. The story of the star-crossed Dao Companions, whose parents committed atrocities against each other, the purity of a wild Dao that still chose to find civilization and be raised further by the teaching of the temple, even the simple but dedicated worldview that forgoes metaphors. It all seems like a mortality story overlayed over real individuals to try to teach or prove a specific point.
Brandon Cleveland
2026-02-12 00:02:59 +0000 UTCI don’t actually think this is Elder Rui Tian is debating with here. There’s obviously the 4 thousand years comment, and the fact that Tian sensed a Daoist master nearby, but also that Rui knows the kind of man Tian is and should be aware that there’s no way in hell reading some books for six months would change Tian’s view of those above him Also, his attitude is completely different from last chapter where he seemed like he was genuinely contemplating what Tian was saying. All of this in mind I don’t believe Tian’s speaking to the reformist elder here
Drakona
2026-02-11 23:46:34 +0000 UTCIt's the writings of the Ancient Crane. This is like a very religious Christian having a troubled teen try to read the bible.
João Vene
2026-02-11 22:54:45 +0000 UTCPretty sure he's only 8 fingered.
Rose
2026-02-11 21:56:00 +0000 UTCTian is failing to recognize the true dao. Which is that you must obey your elders without question, because if you don't you get assigned punishment detail.
Rose
2026-02-11 21:53:53 +0000 UTCI truly don’t understand how Elder Rui could possibly believe he could convince Tian to trust wholeheartedly in his seniors. Based on the last chapter, we can conclude that he is one of the few who knows of Tian’s past—how he grew up in a literal dump, alone and without a family for *years*—and it is entirely the monastery’s fault. He said himself that it would not be surprising if Tian had a blood feud with the monastery, so why did he think reading this would help?
kapo
2026-02-11 21:53:12 +0000 UTCElders are not flial
Mus
2026-02-11 21:03:24 +0000 UTCAlthough tian’s lack of unflinching belief in the elders has come about from how they’ve failed him, the idea that leaders must prove their qualifications to lead came from elder Feng. She set up the training exercise with Burning Heaven in book 3. So at least one elder diverges from rui’s opinion here
Diarmuid McGinnity
2026-02-11 20:34:01 +0000 UTCLol, Elder Rui and the rest are more cooked in the head that I thought. If you think "That a decent person owes everything good in their life to their parents." Then it follows that everything bad is also owed to their parents. Because it completely disregards one's own agency and that of everyone else. This might be even more stupid then the original sin in Christianity. Or any other ridiculous idea
Monus
2026-02-11 20:19:39 +0000 UTCLike someone below said, this is the same belief that occurs in some highly religious people where they assume that not believing in their version of heaven and hell will cause people to start raping and murdering without care. "My morality is built on this idea, therefore people who don't agree with this idea don't have morality."
Robert Mullins
2026-02-11 20:04:02 +0000 UTCI think that, partly, the sect ended up where it was because what it was actually teaching was that the appearance of filial piety and blind obedience to one’s elders will get you more opportunities. As long as you have more talent and luck than those around you of course. Rui is demonstrating piety to his juniors but still has the fundamental flaw, and perhaps he has just realised that true filial piety towards elders must be earned, while piety towards ones juniors is necessary in order to instil the values they desire. Unquestioning blind obedience, which is what I feel like some of the elders expect, does not seem like a good way to follow the Dao, and I find it hard to believe that the ancient crane would have taught that.
Christopher
2026-02-11 20:02:32 +0000 UTC4000 years old, is Rui being an intermediary for the sect master?
Isak Mark
2026-02-11 19:32:47 +0000 UTC"If a junior does not believe in an obligation of duty and care, they won’t believe it when they are a senior either, and then all the evils of the world come pouring in." Does Rui believe that if Tian doesn't believe in filial virtue absolutely, believe that it should be obeyed no matter what, then he will abandoned these virtue when he become an elder? I wonder if Rui thinks this is what happened to Starsieve and this is the reason for the state of the sect. It's funny to me because Starsieve clearly stop caring about the sect but at the same time he clearly kept remembering and respecting his elders that left before him.
Foxiler
2026-02-11 19:09:05 +0000 UTCGrandpa's original idea for the sect was for Tian to just roll it up and walk off on it anyways. I agree that Tian is missing the part of "I only see far because I stand on the shoulders of giants." but the Elders (other than Rui, mostly) are also missing the part of lifting up those who come after. If Rui hadn't been willing to actually pass down that filial piety that he saw from the Ancestors, Black Iron would have assuredly won and none of them would be on in the Mountain to begin with.
Lochar
2026-02-11 18:38:16 +0000 UTCNoooooo I want moreeeeee
Baconwargod
2026-02-11 18:20:06 +0000 UTCYeah, I read that and thought "that's with yall in charge, though" There is a group of people in my country that like to share photos of current events, claiming "this is the future the opposition wants". But it's not. It's now, it's under their watch, and it's completely unnecessary violence that they started, and could end by just going home.
EvilLittleThing
2026-02-11 18:19:07 +0000 UTCI think this exchange between Rui and Tian is excellently written by Warby because it plays out exactly how this kind of argument between a child/adolescent and a well meaning parent goes. Tian is childish in that he judges his seniors for what they've done when his ability to take a new, better path is entirely downstream of the blessings those 'judged' seniors handed Tian. It was Rui's reformations that made Fu's generosity possible and even whatever reformations Tian makes to the Monastery regarding filial piety will only be feasible because Starsieve literally teleported out anyone who is not relatively virtuous. Rui only being able to laugh in the end at Tian's childish sanctimoniousness is so very real. A parent can only laugh because they know their child will find out for themselves that reality is not so simple and easy. There are rarely any good decisions for leaders in a world like this, only people who are willing to take responsibility for the hard ones. I hope Tian is in for some tough decisions and compromises in the near future because it's necessary for his character. Warby has been great at writing Tian as a youth, but Tian can't be an idealistic child forever. At some point, he has to become a man. If this government building exercise hashed out by teenagers for a sect of ancients works out perfectly with no complication and the team flies off into the sunset, it would feel like a bit of a cop-out.
John Smith
2026-02-11 18:17:35 +0000 UTCcrossover special feature when
zero
2026-02-11 18:16:25 +0000 UTCI don't think Rui is laughing
EvilLittleThing
2026-02-11 17:55:43 +0000 UTCEdit suggestion: Anelects -> Analects
William
2026-02-11 17:51:57 +0000 UTCWith the added frustration that in character Tian follows what people say rather than what they really do a little too rigorously for them to be comfortable with.
Abhi
2026-02-11 17:47:30 +0000 UTCMm of course its also important to note that Filial Piety as a term is like...not one thing. Its a term that can be noted to apply to actually a fairly large variety of systems that are usually present in family styles usually affiliated with what might be considered minority groups in a fair few western regions. Within those there is usually a dynamic of taking care of the parents, giving back to the family, etc but how thats done and the line of like obedience differes quite a bit in different ones. Or rather Confucian style Filiality isnt the only form and is very specific in its terms for obedience not neccessarily being particularly equitable.
Veridescent
2026-02-11 17:34:05 +0000 UTC“In four thousand years, you are the only person I have instructed for six months that was worse at the end of it than the beginning.” -- Ah jeez I just realized. It's not Elder Rui talking here. He's just repeating what the Master in the forest is telling him. Well that or Heavenly Realm people live a lot longer than I assumed. Or it's a Typo lol
Abhi
2026-02-11 17:25:13 +0000 UTCI think the debate in this chapter is much trickier than some in this series and the Slumrat Rising series since I think the philosophical opponent in Rui is built to not just argue a position, but be recognized as wrong (as a way of justifying the history of the sect, it's past failures, and how we got here). Generally, I feel the author is great about putting less weight on either side of a lineup and perhaps another issue would be growing up with implicit acceptance of the Western majority belief about independence (at least that is what I feel I notice in the comments, to me there feels like a sort of automatic Tian is right and Rui is wrong, more so than protagonist bias). I grew up in a Western household, but child to immigrant parents from East Asia and that makes the underlying conversation more complicated to me. Textually, I know that Tian is ultimately right given what we are presented in the story. But foundationally I think the debate is much more colorful. As an aside, Xianxia in particular is difficult to talk about this, because virtuous actions themselves grant literal feedback (merits and often access to power with the existence of 'virtuous' sects) whereas real life often virtuous acts can come with more drawbacks than benefits. I'm grateful for the chapter and don't wish to pretend I have the 'right' answers, but felt by sharing my thoughts here some other folks may appreciate (what I perceive as) a bit more nuance on this topic. [For disclosure, I both am filial in the sense that I have spent much of my time and energy in life taking care of my elderly mother / and 'unfilial' by coming out and being unashamedly* (*often a WIP) queer, nonreligious, and a musician rather than what my parents wanted me to be].
Lady Merlin
2026-02-11 17:07:13 +0000 UTCPoor Elder Rui. It must be so frustrating that Tian can't understand the simple logical imperative behind "Do what I say, not what I do".
Andre the Midget
2026-02-11 17:04:42 +0000 UTC"I believe that most of the Elders are virtuous, most of the time. I have always believed that the Elders were well intentioned. Just that they weren’t always reliable.” I imagine exact same thing Elders say about juniors. Maybe that's what's so funny to Rui.
Tadas
2026-02-11 17:02:16 +0000 UTCThe monastery existing without reform/change of leadership after star sieves heart died. could be considered one long elaborate funeral which is not in line with the teachings of the ancients.
General Obvious
2026-02-11 16:59:39 +0000 UTCremember kids always question your leader though it may get you killed. - says our wonderful 10 fingered and wise ancestor Tian
Person
2026-02-11 16:53:33 +0000 UTCTftc!
G&S Gaming
2026-02-11 16:32:01 +0000 UTCtftc
Samuel Sever
2026-02-11 16:30:30 +0000 UTCThere's something both chilling and deeply amusing about the fact that the problem isn't that Tian isn't obedient, but that they can see how extremely conditional that obedience is. "If everyone was like you, there would be chaos!" "If everyone could truly just obey their elders..." Whoops, posted before I finished. I feel like the whole thrust of Rui's argument is all stuff about how if the ideal situation is maintained, everything will fall into place. It must be really comforting to believe that, and feel like non-ideal outcomes are the exception rather than an obvious and persistent reality. "No one 'below' me is allowed to call out my human and inevitable mistakes" is a fast path to cascading failures. Very comforting and confidence-affirming belief for those above, a huge shackle to those below.
Quivo
2026-02-11 16:23:04 +0000 UTCCould be level 1 heavenly people live for 800 years. I suppose the only reason it’s said that earthly people live to 200 is because it’s considered a certainty that they’ll reach level 9 eventually. Maybe it’s not the case with heavenly people
Diarmuid McGinnity
2026-02-11 16:17:08 +0000 UTCFive strong juniors, each of whom could owe the monastery a blood feud, and Rui thinks that making charcoal is going to settle that down?
Steve Wright
2026-02-11 16:16:05 +0000 UTCTian's wisdom slider is so far to the right it breaks the character creation screen. Excellent writing Warby, we've seen him come a long long way. You're going to have to keep reading if you want to stay ahead of your character's thoughts!
Colin Groh
2026-02-11 16:15:48 +0000 UTCNot super important in the grand scheme of things but I think this is a continuity error. “In four thousand years, you are the only person I have instructed for six months that was worse at the end of it than the beginning.” Isn't Elder Rui only 400? To be 4000 he would have to be above the heavenly person realm, since heavenly people only live to be about 800, right?
JackassofAllTrades
2026-02-11 16:02:36 +0000 UTCI would have added something about how owing to your parents is hard when they were killed by your brothers. Does this produce a moral imperative in him to kill his brothers? And what does he owe to his parents when he does not know their faces. Tien is a severed link in the great chain they espouse. An orphan in a slum whose only filial relationship is that with his grandpa.
Chris Fey
2026-02-11 16:01:31 +0000 UTCTian holds up the mirror and so many elders don’t like what they see.
Steve Wright
2026-02-11 15:58:48 +0000 UTCDisappointed in Rui, but I guess that's to be expected with how the sect has stagnated due to mindsets like his
Liam Zay
2026-02-11 15:49:59 +0000 UTCRui has been. But I don't think he recognized clearly that Tian has only experienced it on a limited basis from a limited set of elders. Vitally, though, Rui seems to have just had an assumption knocked loose: Tian's virtue is not dependent on his obedience, but on following examples of virtue that he has been given. That is how the filial chains operate for him.
David
2026-02-11 15:48:07 +0000 UTCOn the one hand, it's very encouraging that this person living a model daoist life is also extremely strong (as is his dad). There really is something to virtue being strength. But it's also quite concerning and dismaying that this very daoist person thinks your quite the fuckup.
BurnNote
2026-02-11 15:46:00 +0000 UTCTian realized long ago that those who came before are people like he is. You can be grateful for their care, respectful of their teachings, but after a certain point you have a right to interrogate whether you wish to obey them. Because they might be further along the path, but they are not beyond it, and can be lost as easily as anyone else. I think Tian is being even more filial than Rui is, because he seeks to care not just for his juniors, but his seniors as well.
Noroh
2026-02-11 15:42:51 +0000 UTCIt does sound like a useful way to motivate neutral or bad people to not do evil though
ioajfidsnmfomds77
2026-02-11 15:41:59 +0000 UTCEither that or Elder Whiskers better watch his back.
BurnNote
2026-02-11 15:41:32 +0000 UTCPartially a thing of face. Face is nominally a reputation system for regulating behavior to allow more complex behaviors and activities with others because your "nature" is already known. Similar in principle to the shared metaphors meaning a shared language of identity. A proud wise elder would never need to be distrusted after all, ignoring that they are not all knowing and may make mistakes as they are in truth still a mostly mortal being with incompete info.
Veridescent
2026-02-11 15:33:08 +0000 UTCOh shit, "the sect* has forgotten that filial piety goes both ways", huh?
Gardor
2026-02-11 15:31:53 +0000 UTCThe Elders believe the Juniors should be filial toward them, without question or hesitation, and that they should be filial toward their Juniors... I mean, unless it gets in the way or something. Best not to question it.
David Bailey
2026-02-11 15:31:41 +0000 UTCI might add a addendum, checks of actual quality require more effort and oversight. Humans are lazy, checking and ensuring things work may beget conflict, which is more notable in times of scarcity and resource accumulation by a few elite which is essentially what the sect truly is in this form. As such they desire obedience as it lowers energy expenditure. This doesnt mean they dont have conflict they just divert it using their pawns to fighting with each other using specific more ritualized means. This extends to other sects too using their specific members as big hidden sticks. All of this is quite human. The world doesnt care, the world turns and moves on, this dynamic is of humans trying to retain a stable illusion as if they do not err. The Dao is both formless and yet formed of all things, a proper enlightened understanding is that cascade continues regardless for the self in of itself is a illusion. But such would require acknowledging how fluid the world and thus the selfs definements may be and that goes against that illusion of a solid unchangable hiearchy. Its so much information and possibility, while the hiearchy is a juridical binary of obey and all will be well despite the width of the world meaning ones forebears and self may not be perfect at all times. So very human, heh.
Veridescent
2026-02-11 15:30:56 +0000 UTCTheir discussion sounds similar to theists vs atheists, where theists posit that religion (typically theirs) is necessary to prevent people from doing evil, and atheists posit that good people don't need something like eternal punishment to motivate them to not do evil.
EvilLittleThing
2026-02-11 15:30:49 +0000 UTCGeeeez really reads like a bunch of grown men and women having an absolute philosophical temper tantrum. I just gotta think Truth Medici would be proud.
BaguaBrady
2026-02-11 15:26:13 +0000 UTCWe’re about to see a biigggg upheaval
Immortal
2026-02-11 15:25:03 +0000 UTCTian is on a rat hunt? My boy is using metaphors!!!!!
ioajfidsnmfomds77
2026-02-11 15:23:22 +0000 UTCAs on again off again Xia defender I don't think Rui understands the uselessness of this line. "That a decent person owes everything good in their life to their parents, and they have a duty to repay those blessings." Tian is good despite his biological parents. He owes filial piety to outsiders who he's been able to weigh and measure. Not through some pre-existing obligation. EDIT: To add to that! Even his chosen Father is weighed down by the cruelty he was apart of to Tian. Tian had to choose and reaffirm Fu's fatherhood. It was given with love and devotion but not freely. EDIT MORE: Sorry, this was a good chapter and I keep thinking through it. Fuck Rui. "You want to know what life is like without those bonds? Look at the heretics! Look at the Redstone Wastes." Look to the garbage heap too, asshole.
Andrew Goebel
2026-02-11 15:22:42 +0000 UTCAll that to say listen to your betters and it's not your place to judge. Urgh, I wouldn't be able to stay as calm as Tian. Also Rui very much admitting that there is basically zero diverging opinions in their books. If you want to build a strong doctrine, you challenge it.
CentaureHeart
2026-02-11 15:21:46 +0000 UTCTian is slowly training those around him to actually say what they mean rather than hide behind flowery text. How neurodivergent of him 🤣
Desert Rainbow
2026-02-11 15:20:10 +0000 UTCOne reoccurring element of this story is that Tian often acts so virtuous, yet also practically, that it creates problems for even his good superiors. He is destined for sect leadership, and he is not afraid to act like it now.
Andrew Lechner
2026-02-11 15:18:52 +0000 UTCOoo Tian said the thing!
Joshua Flowers
2026-02-11 15:18:36 +0000 UTCYeah! Take that Heinlien!
Gardor
2026-02-11 15:18:09 +0000 UTCWhy should you be filial to your seniors, when your seniors weren't filial to you? Tian is engaging in filial duty with trust but verify as a strong addendum. Then those that are being verified don't like that they are being verified, since it shows that they aren't being truly filial towards their juniors, and that when they were/are juniors they didn't verify.
Thomas
2026-02-11 15:15:13 +0000 UTCGet his ass tian
Cameron Bacon
2026-02-11 15:15:07 +0000 UTCThanks for the chapter
Chrysos au
2026-02-11 15:14:06 +0000 UTC
