Frame Trap - Episode 152 "Forbidden Horizons"

Just wanted to add my, I think somewhat unique perspective on sifu. I love hard games and have beaten every souls game and platinumed a few. I have played a ton of sifu. Literally I have played the first lever 15 times and the second another 10 and I can’t get past it. I am positive I can get past it and I want to. The issue is I have carpal tunnel from playing games and working in programming 9 hours a day for the last 30 years. I can’t play sifu for more than 30 minutes without needing a rest for hours. Younger me would be done with sifu by now for sure but I just don’t have the hand stamina. For that reason I am sadly excited for east mode. I want to play it on hard but it hurts me.

TheClassiestHobo

The whole difficulty conversation, I just wanted to keep asking, "who loses?" Adding more options seems like a categorical good to me. The Frame Trap crew here all come a place of loving challenging games, and I don't. It took some time, but recently I decided that no way to play a game is wrong if it gives you the most fun (aside from ruining others' experiences of course). Through easy modes, I've been able to branch out into genres that would otherwise intimidate me. It's how I enjoyed Devil May Cry 5 and Streets of Rage 4 - games this panel loves. I quit Twitter because I got tired of the toxicity, so I haven't seen any of the Sifu discourse Ben and Huber refer to. If such exists, I'm almost positive it's a vocal minority. Simply put, there are tons of people without the dexterity or the time to practice and master the default game. And the counter argument is always about the "developer's intent".... I'm sorry, but that's bull honky. I know that if I was a developer, I would prefer that the most people possible enjoy my game over preserving my walled garden. Death of the Author is an interesting theory in passive mediums, but with games being so interactive it applies doubly here. We live in a world with speedrunning, fan mods, and glitch hunting. Our relationship with games is deep and complicated. When folks cry out to preserve the creator's intent, it does come from a legitimate place of wanting art to be respected. But also, sadly, it can turn into gatekeeping. I love the allies on this crew, and whenever "the discourse" comes up, Ben and the guests do a good job navigating it and keeping a clear head. I simply felt the other side was underrepresented here and wanted to thrown in my opinion. The last thing I want to say is Huber, if you feel like an added easy mode devalues your accomplishment, that sounds like a mental block. The good of bringing in more players surely outweighs the bad in that situation. Love and Respect Forever!!

Jeremy Farbman

Couldn't have put it better myself. Will be interesting to see how Sloclap translates Sifu's mechanics to an easier difficulty and how it could potentially alter the overall experience. Also anticipating some hot take reviews for Elden Ring. Either for clout or out of spite like with Sifu and Returnal. (Provided Elden Ring lives up to its promises, of course)

ToiletDrummer

Unfortunately, I think that adding difficulty options for a game like Sifu largely won't change anything. Sure, more players might be sherpa'd through the game's levels and reach the endings, but they'll still miss out on the core experience that resonates with players who played it on the original difficulty the devs designed the game around. Reaching credits does not necessarily equate to having experienced a game as the devs intended either, and these variances can largely effect public perception around said games. For some games it very much robs what makes said game special, and the people who missed out on that element will never understand, because they didn't invest as much as others playing the way the devs built the game around. Think of it as playing a story heavy game but you skipped every cutscene. It is the same thing but with the actual game design. The story focused game you skipped every cutscene for isn't going to seem very good, and a Sifu where you're not pushing yourself to master a tight combat system is no different. Unfortunately, these people could also negatively effect the game's reception, because their experience of the game was missing the developer's intentions for the game so they won't think it is as good as players who did experience the intentions of how the game was designed to impact the player. All that said, a player beating a game on an altered difficulty never should effect your own pride for having overcome the challenge of a game. Gets messy when discussing the game and experiences not lining up between players because an altered difficulty existed and a player that didn't "need" to play it that way had a worse experience than they could have had by challenging themselves more to experience what the game was designed to evoke. Intricacies like that are why you typically hear people against the idea of them adding extra difficulty options for games not originally designed for them. I doubt many are actually anti-accessibility. They just want the heart of the intentions of the developers to remain intact in the game, and translating that in a way that makes sense for a wide range of needs across a bunch of players who for various reasons can't experience the same thing in the same way as it is currently quickly balloons into quite the large ask. Even worse if this is being outright demanded to a small studio that will likely see little returns on investing in this extra development time. So I do believe there's some validity in saying a game might just not be for everyone. You see this kind of thing in real life too. You go to an amusement park and a rollercoaster there might have warnings and restrictions on potential passengers, because they can't just invest in making an "easy mode" of the same rollercoaster that caters to people who can't physically handle the design of it currently. Parks usually instead just offer less intensive rides more people can handle to compensate instead, and if you haven't noticed we're currently in an absolutely flooded industry with tons of interactive experiences for everyone constantly releasing! But this isn't me saying "Sifu is our game and you have to find something else". In the words of many tabletop Dungeon Masters, including the lovely Matthew Mercer, "You can certainly try." I very much encourage said trying. I just think if it doesn't work out for you, instead of screaming at the devs or anyone who enjoyed the game as is, you should accept that personally and decide where to go from there. Sifu was never dishonest with the kind of game it was from the marketing. Anyone doing any basic level of research on the game should be aware of what they're getting themselves into. If anyone just wants to see the locations and paper thin story, they can turn around and watch a Let's Play or Twitch Stream for that. Such options are basically going to equate to playing through a watered down gameplay experience yourself in the end anyways. Unless a game is specifically marketed as something anyone can finish, it is foolish to assume this is the case or something owed to you for purchasing said game. You buy a license for playing a game and not a license to experiencing all a game has to offer. Your investment in a game doesn't stop after you've purchased / downloaded it, and it is up to you to decide how much more you want to put into it and when to move on.

MBUN

Rest of the episode was great, but yeah, that really dragged things down.

Cathal Fallon

Play the game you paid for the way you want to play it! My reflexes are shot and anything about Normal is a nightmare for me to manage, so I'd go for Easy modes most of the time. Returnal getting patched doesn't rob people who beat the game before it of their wins or make them superior to people who use the save function.

Cathal Fallon

This X1000!

Cathal Fallon

Same and agreed. This is normally one of my favorite podcasts and I look forward to it every time but this one was not really fun to listen to for a big chunk of it.

Baircade

I don't typically write things on here, 'cause I'm happy to just enjoy the podcasts and be on my way. That said, here's my take on some of the difficulty talk: Occasionally, these Frame Traps devolve into angry responses to random internet threads. I avoid most internet conversation because of this very negativity, and responding to random people on the internet seems to just spread that negativity. It also tends to devolve into arguing in bad faith on both sides in response (see: threads in response to this Frame Trap post). Personally, I only listen to get Ben and guests' takes on things and to enjoy the banter.

Huber, one difficulty does feel awesome. Everything is tailor made and everyone has the same entry fee. I 100% think developers have that right just like the 1000s of movies, shows and life experiences that have many different barriers of entry. I like the challenge.

Old Hunter Zerah

Exactly, he is being angry about takes thrown at him on twitter and gatekeeping but then proceeds to do all of that himself.

Baircade

I love Huber, and agree with most of his takes, on a variety of subjects, but on this difficulty thing he's just wrong. Implying that an easy mode even being available devalues his harder mode playthrough, is the definition of gatekeeping and probably the worst take on the subject I've heard. What the hell does it matter if someone want's to play through a game they've paid for on easy mode, if you think hard mode is the way to play, then just do that. Why imply that someone else's playthrough is the "wrong" way. Very, very, very bad take IMO.

SwinBob72

I've been thinking about this all day but I just want to say I don't like this Frame Trap's energy. Nor some of the emotionally charged stuff Huber was saying.

Baircade

I'm sorry Huber, but difficulty options ARE accessibility options. I included some informative accessibility resources on this and I encourage people to check them out. Even if you still disagree, I think these are interesting perspectives from people who know way more about gaming with disabilities than most people. L&R. https://caniplaythat.com/2020/07/24/what-easy-mode-means-for-disabled-players https://caniplaythat.com/2021/04/02/what-role-does-game-difficulty-play https://www.techradar.com/news/video-games-need-accessibility-stop-gatekeeping-fun https://twitter.com/stevenspohn/status/1114214047300366336

Shoulderguy

Cherish the ride!!!

tenor

Hi Allies! On the difficulty question, I think it has to just come down to the devs and their vision for the game. If they think that they can incorporate difficulty choices while keeping that vision strong, I'm all for it simply because some folks just aren't as good at video games generally. The easy mode for some folks may be like playing the hard mode for others in experiential terms. That said, I fully support any team that also goes, "no this is what we want for our game. The changes we'd have to make for difficulty settings necessarily depart from our intentions, so we're not going to do that." In the case of Sifu, I figure that Sloclap probably decided to work on difficulty options with this framework. The patch notes they released for this recent update makes it very clear that as they refine the game, they are constantly referring back to their intentions with each piece of the game design

RiggsRay

So Huber had trouble finishing the game as a reviewer, as someone who does this for a living. Then he got advise from his fellow allies on how to play Sifu and overcome issues. Then he played with an audience and the audience advice definitely helped him overcome levels in the game. He played the game for a long time. You combine all of this and you have to just marvel at how insane the lack of self awareness is with his comments regarding difficulty. I'm sorry but that whole discussion was embarrassing to listen to and left me feeling very surprised and disappointed. I was saying before that maybe a Bead/Huber Playstation podcast might be cool but I take back that comment. I'm fine without that.

Randika

I must point out that difficulty and accessibility are absolutely related for some people. Unfortunately those people are a small, often voiceless minority who do not get much representation. Trying to speak for them and say that difficulty isn't related to their struggle, is a misinformed take that is worth reevaluating. Ultimately - someone's choice to play an easier version should have zero affect on anyone's enjoyment of a game. Gaming, like all art, is a personal experience left to our own interpretation. Being able to share such different experiences and what they mean to us is what brings people together, and is also what makes Frame Trap great, I might add. Even with multiple difficulty options, there is still gratification to be had for completing a game on the hardest difficulty or a developer's intended difficulty. Especially now, with trophy/achievement tracking, and being able to see the % of people who completed them. Other games have also compromised by disabling trophies/achievements for casual difficulties.

Like I (spanish native speaker) view English movies without subtitles because I can understand them and don't wanna have subtitles on the screen, whenever I watch them with friends that need subtitles I'm 100% okay with that, or if they wanna switch it to the dubbed version, it's okay too.

I just don't get how someone else playing on an "easier" difficulty and that difficulty option existing affects your own enjoyment. The whole "get gud", "keep trying", "make time", "just don't play it then" is so stupid for me.

Hey Jones, CD Projekt Red released Patch 1.5 as well as the next-gen versions of Cyberpunk 2077 today(2/15). With a substantial content update like this, would the allies consider revisiting the game? Not necessarily to give it a new review but at least get some impressions on how the new systems feel compared to the old ones. (Don’t need to read this on air, but I’m curious how you all feel about this trend in general. This last generation of gaming has taught me that it’s better to wait a while after a game’s release to get the optimal experience playing it.) L&R 🙏🏽 Edit: Wrong post, dammit! 😭

Sam

and you are that reason

Robert

I don’t understand how you can be such elitists about someone being able to play a game who doesn’t have your skills. Easy mode doesn’t mean someone wants to cakewalk everything, it means the boss that you feel great beating after 3 hours takes someone else 12 hours and they never do it because at some point it’s demoralizing, not rewarding. None of you are going to play Ragnarok on Give Me God Of War the first time, you’ll all be playing normal mode (which is baby mode) and saying the story is what’s important in that particular game, smoking your little cigars. Sorry for the salt; there’s a reason this conversation is toxic.

Mandrake

L&R

Hylian Ticipated